Random Music Thoughts

Unsomnambulist said:
www.rollingstone.com

The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time

To remake our greatest albums list, we tabulated Top 50 Albums lists from more than 300 artists, producers, critics, music-industry figures.
www.rollingstone.com www.rollingstone.com

This is the newest version. @Zeeba Neighba

Edit: there are too many great albums low on this list.
Click to expand...

Oh, Rick...dear, sweet Rick...what have you done posting this here for me to dissect and brood over.

As the resident list-fan of the MG, I revel in going over these lists, only to immediately seize on the injustices and IMO bonehead selections/rankings of said lists. Truly this will only be solved by one day releasing my own lists which would be definitive in my own mind (but also open myself up to the justice of instant critique).

I think the best way to approach lists like this are to celebrate the positives. It's wonderful to see a diversity of music selected (and a healthy amount of new music which, granted, has not had the benefit of time to confirm lasting power and influence, but still is nice and...lets face it sells mags as Rolling Stone tries to stay relevant to a 16-25 demographic.
So let's celebrate the presence of albums like Marvin Gaye's Here My Dear, Isaac Hayes' Hot Buttered Soul and Donna Summer's Bad Girls. Wonderful to see Jason Izbell here as well as the great pop of Rhythm Nation 1814. Nicely surprised by Fela's Expensive Shit, Devo's debut, Neil Young's On the Beach, and Bill Wither's Still Bill. Yes, none would argue against the greatness and immense listenability of these albums - still it's great they are not forgotten and that someone might read this list as a high school/college student and say "Wow never heard of that one. Let me check it out". That, after all, is the biggest advantage of these lists (not as an accurate representation of music greatness)

For after all, it was a Rolling Stone list (as I have so often relayed) that broadened my music listening back in 1987 at RS's 20th anniversary.
I am often amused with subsequent lists how albums that were on that "Top 100" list can all of a sudden be reassessed and dropped down. Am I to believe that albums in 1987's "Top 100" like Surrealistic Pillow, Let's Get It On, Heart Like a Wheel, and I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight are all of a sudden not as great musically. Or more incredulously, in 33 years, that 400 GREATER albums have been released to shove all of these down in the 400s? C'mon!

I find when approaching these lists, there are two types of lists - one a legitimate attempt to rank music of different styles and eras (as impossible as that is) and the other an attempt at upsetting the apple cart by over-ranking certain albums and downplaying established classics in order to court controversy (and to prompt lengthy replies by folks like me). I remember an NME list from several years ago putting The Queen is Dead as #1 of all time. Is it a great album - absolutely. Number 1 - doubtful all things considering, and plenty of folks criticized NME (which was probably the attention they wanted).
So now all of a sudden after decades of being #1, does it bother me that Sgt Pepper's has lost it's coveted #1 spot. Not really. I've often though some songs a bit too delightfully quirky, and the presence of the overlong "Within You, Without You" detracts from the album as a whole. Personally I would place Abbey Road and Revolver higher, but c'mon Rolling Stone - you're saying it's suddenly dropped on YOUR ranking from #1 down to #24 - how is that possible.

Of course there's tons of such quirks:
Kid A is the highest ranked Radiohead at 20 - alright, it has it's fans, but OK Computer at 42

Blonde on Blonde at 38 when it has been a top 10 album in the past

The highest hip hop album is Lauryn Hill's debut topping Public Enemy, Kanye's MBDTF, Nas, and Kendrick Lamar. Great album truly (and maybe more R&B-ish I suppose, but topping some genre-shaking albums there. The list does have a healthy amount of R&B on it BTW)

Joni Mitchell's Blue at #3 - again, classic but #3

But one could quibble about the top 25 - hey these albums are all tremendous it's just an opinion on HOW tremendous. Do I think that What's Going On should be #1 - no. Should it be in the top 10 - yeah, probably. Does it really matter as all of the top 10 are incredible. No

So it's looking outside the top 25, where the true injustices are seen. Arcade Fire's Funeral is in the discussion of the best album of it's decade. Similar arguments can be made with The White Stripes Elephant - so why are these at 500 and 449 respectively. My Aim Is True at 430. Surfer Rosa at 390. Dookie at 370. The Stone Roses 319.
Yet inclusivity and attempts to usher in "modern classics" sometimes makes no sense. Miranda Lambert at 480 over some of the above. Kacey Musgraves at 270. Shania Twain's Come on Over at 300 - nice albums, sure, but nice, sure even good, but they shouldn't exist over important albums (aside from the radio hits Come on Over has a lot of dreck on it actually). Am I being too judgmental - yeah. Are outings like Musgraves or Shania over the years going to be remembered like rightfully praised albums like Lemonade. No they'll drop hundred plus spots by next list. So why even place them where they are over tried-and-true albums

On a separate note, not a big fan of compilations included in such lists unless they're comps before the album era (is it fair for example that James Browns 72-song career box set Star Time gets a ranking in the top 100). And also I find when attempts to meld genres together in these lists, jazz gets short shift - how can albums that are the greatest jazz albums of all time (ex. Mingus Ah Um) be so low if we're using the same standards.

Hey, 've always been a bit to heavy on weight historical import and influence on an album compared to pure listenability which many will say is a wrong way of looking at such lists. If it's got a beat and I can dance to it, who cares if it was the first album to do blah-blah-blah. I also am a old fogey who holds on to opinions about old beloved favorites far too long. Still I do feel an album that stands the test of time deserves credit for its staying-power

And believe it or not after all this, I do enjoy the exercise of dissecting lists like this - it floats my boat, even if it doesn't sound like it

Forgive the length and the babbling...and don't parse my post too much. Rapidly typing in order to get back to work :)
 
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www.cnn.com

Rolling Stone places Marvin Gaye at the top of its new, less rock heavy list of the best albums ever

Seventeen years after first publishing "500 Greatest Albums of All Time," Rolling Stone magazine announced that it is giving the list a major update, making it "less rock-centric" in the process.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
The list now features 154 new albums not previously on the 500 list, and 86 albums from this century. The change represents a massive shift for the magazine, moving to recognize more contemporary albums and a wider range of tastes.
Click to expand...


This is the same quandry the R&R Hall of Fame has. Are their respective lists primarily for R&R or for the overall category of popular music? RS more or less answered that question long ago by including non-R&R albums on previous lists. But that left them open to complaints that if you're going to acknowledge other genres, you have to more accurately reflect their greatness in the higher levels. Either close the list to only R&R, or genuinely appreciate the greatness of other genres of popular music. I think they have come a lot closer to that ideal with this new list.

I know R&R fans are disappointed to see Blonde On Blonde at 38, Back In Black at 84, and Born In The USA at 142. But it thrills me to see My Life at 126, Paid In Full at 64, and The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill at 10. I don't feel the albums moved down were not worthy, but I also appreciate that the RS list more accurately reflects all the popular music that is created.

Some albums are horribly underranked. Ask Rufus is much better than 499, The Emancipation of Mimi should be at least in the top 200 and not at 389, and putting The Velvet Rope at 318 is criminally negligent ranking.

Still, it is great to flip through one of the massive "all-time" lists and find more than 1 album in 50 that I love. Kudos to RS for finally opening the table to all the great popular music of the past 60 years:clap::cheer::thumbsup::cool::hug::judge::Matt::banana::heart::mrgreen:

P.S. - As I more thoroughly review this list, one word comes to mind: Glorious!
I know this could not have been an easy list to curate. But for the first time, I think it is the most complete list of great popular music that I have ever seen, even though I continue to disagree that greatest hits albums belong on a list like this.
I will gladly peruse further.
 
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^
Love the post, JR - indeed I suppose the purpose of a great list is perhaps to intrigue the broadest group of music lovers without satisfying anyone

And actually I applaud the addition of more popular albums (like, say, Adele's 21) that, though music snobs (I'd include myself but do happen to enjoy that album :)) stick their noses up, clearly have something going on (like the #1 album) to appeal to so MANY people.

That being said, it just seems really wrong to have Taylor Swift's Red (again an enjoyable album IMO) in the top 100 above albums like The Wall, Doolittle, Sticky Fingers, The Stroke's This Is It, The Queen is Dead, 1999, and The Clash's debut

Again I should probably celebrate the inclusions rather that worry about the ranking because all such criteria (listenable, important/historic, influential, "classic") are indeed too subjective to get one's dander up.
 
As R&B, Soul, and Hip Hop are often passively dismissed by fans of R&R as respectable but less prestigious forms of popular music, I wanted to make some random observations about how people who consider those forms of popular music to be the best genres feel about some albums on the RS 500 list. I won't bemoan their rankings much because the fact that RS finally recognized more of these albums is enough to make things right for now. Lastly, I'm not suggesting anyone has to like these albums. I'm just talking about what makes them great to me and people who share my unadulterated love of this type of music.

#362 Never Too Much - Luther Vandross (1981): Luther was maybe THE greatest R&B/Soul performer of the early to mid 80s. The reverence fans had/have for him possibly cannot be easily understood by people who aren't deep true fans of the genre. It's not hyperbole to compare his hold on his audience to Michael Jackson's hold on the Pop fanbase or Springsteen's decade-long respect among the R&R base. And this album was his Born To Run or Thriller. This is 7 songs and 37 concise minutes of pure Soul blissful perfection. Every song is at least :4.0: half are :5.0: and a couple are :4.5: . Luther's songwriting sets him apart from nearly any other songwriting by sounding so true, so conversational as two people in love might speak to each other, so in the moment and on point emotionally. This is not the symbolic grand-gesture statement love songs of Roberta Flack singing Burt Bacharach or the Supremes singing Motown's. These lyrics are real people simply telling each other "Don't you know that I really really really really really really love you." And who doesn't want to be told that?

#467 BLACKsummers'night - Maxwell (2009): Maxwell burst onto the R&B scene in 1996 much like D'Angelo had a year earlier, and like D'Angelo, Maxwell took a hiatus just when it seemed his career was about to go super-supernova. Eight years later, he returned with this perfect slice of contemporary Soul, 9 songs, 37 minutes of cooing, growling confessional emotions. A crack band jumps through every genre hoop with the perfection of the Bar-Kays in the 70s-80s, and the songwriting is fantastic. And adding a couple of young Jazz lions like Derrick Hodge to the band takes the subtle complexity of the music into territory that rewards repeated close listens.

#280 Get Rich Or Die Tryin' - 50 Cent (2002): It's easy to understand why people who only listen to the overwhelmingly revered/respected/safer Hip Hop of the Roots, Outkast, or Public Enemy might dismiss Fiddy. He came prepackaged with a ready-made-for-media true-life backstory of a drug dealer who had been shot 9 times, poured his heart into lyrics written between recouperating and dealing, signed to maybe the greatest Hip Hop producer ever who had recently made a star of a skinny white kid from Detroit, and he spoke with mumbly lisp that might make you think he was a little too street and a little too simple minded. What I heard, as a man in my mid-30s who was listening to less rap than I had in the previous 15 years was a hungry, lyrical, emotional young man who phrased his emotions and life the way I sometimes might have when I was 21 and learning my place in the world as a young Black man. Yeah, Fiddy might have been a little too street, but he was also extremely real - and that realness, paired with Dre's hypnotically intense production, was undeniably awesome. Honestly, I do not expect casual listeners of Hip Hop to like this, just as casual R&R fans might not care much for Mars Volta (which I love) or The White Stripes (which I barely tolerate.) But for those who :heart: Hip Hop, this is a all-time must have album. It might not have received crossover radio play but "Many Men (Wish Death)" perfectly displays why hardcore HipHop Heads revere this album, and why casual HipHop listeners disdain it. "Death gotta be easy, because life is hard. It'll leave you physically mentally and emotionally scarred." Word! " Just as teenager R&R fans aspired to Mick Jagger's insouciant internationally playboy swag, young Hip Hop fans aspired to Fiddy's true grit, ingenuity and resolve to help them overcome the trials of their own lives like he overcame his trials: "Now it's clear that I'm here for a real reason, cause he got hit like I got hit but he ain't f___in' breathin'." We all aspired to believe that we're here for a real reason, that we could take life's trials and hits like Fiddy and keep succeedin'. The beats are hit-worthy, but like the best HipHop, it's the lyrics that make this an all-time great.
"For the niggas on lock, doing life behind bars
I don't say only god can judge me, 'cause I see things clear
Quick these crackers will give my black ass a hundred years"
During this time where greater America is just beginning to wake up to the toll systemic racism (especially as regards criminal justice) has taken upon African-Americans, those lyrics show the victims have long known the truth. When Fiddy says that, we all nod in acknowledgement and understand much more than he said. The entire album has gems like that that make this great.

#389 The Emancipation of Mimi - Mariah Carey (2005): There is much Soul in R&B, and there can be R&B in Soul. However, there's a point where the very wide blurry gradient line between Soul and R&B becomes a fine sharp point that divides the two forms into distinct halves sometimes. Vandross and India.Arie exist far on the Soul side of the line, while Maxwell and Raphael Saadiq eat on both sides. Blackstreet, Jill Scott, Blige, R Kelly and Angie Stone stay mostly on the R&B side. After her first couple of albums after Mariah took over control of her career from her label, she has unapologetically leaned heavily to the R&B side. After a few downward trending albums that hinted she might be losing her edge, Mariah (seemingly paying close attention to what up-and-comers like Scott, Faith Evans, and Stone were doing in contemporary R&B) teamed up with R&B uber-producer Jermaine Dupri to helm the bulk of this album, but he recruited other great producers like Pharrell's Neptunes, James Poyser, and Jim Wright, and they all delivered fantastic songs. Stephen Thomas Erlewine's review on AllMusicGuide is a textbook example of how this album (and genre) is ignorantly maligned by people who don't really like the genre in the first place - and more proof that AMG should re-commission hundreds of reviews that were written by people who didn't understand/appreciate the genres of the albums they delivered opinions for. Though this is incredibly soulful (like every Blackstreet album) this album is a textbook example for how to expertly and artistically create an R&B heavy Soul album in the aughts, and should be taught in music production classes. Everybody I know (IRL and virtually) who is a fan of R&B greatly reveres this album.

#246 Mama Said Knock You Out - LL Cool J (1991): This is on this list because of two reasons. One, it's a guilty pleasure. LL rarely says anything too deep, so this isn't something I dive into for some introspective reflection. LL never really identifies the future hot new producer whose sound sets the trend for the next decade. LL never did anything controversial or revolutionary. He was a young buck who never bucked the system. But he was earnest and spirited, and when it was time to have fun, you could always count on Uncle L to deliver for good times. He's the fratboy who dropped out after his sophomore year but hung out at the frathouse until his mid-20s, always down for a party. Still, if I had my druthers, it wouldn't have been an example on this list. That leads to the second reason it's here - because for as much as I appreciate the difficult work RS put in to rebuild its 500 list to include all popular music of the past 65 years or so, they obviously dropped the ball with Hip Hop. Too narrow a focus on only the crossover artists and/or impossible to ignore top sellers, too many HipHop artists given multiples spots on the list when it might have been more appropriate to drop a JayZ album for Mos Def, Talib, Blackalicious, J Cole, Pharoahe Monch, Common or Digital Underground or many other examples. I don't know if Kanye really deserved, what?, 5 albums on the list when those guy deserved a mention too. But they didn't make the list and MSKYO did, and I can be happy for that because this is a great slice of Rap life. When I want to simply Rap out (akin to Rockin' out) this fits the bill nicely.
 
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^^
Hmmm, I'm wondering if @JazzyRandy 's comments are indirectly geared towards me R&B-splaining why these albums should be on the list instead of my beloved rock albums (it does seem suspicious that he name-checks two of my favorite hip hop groups, Public Enemy and OutKast - and though I would agree they're more revered and respected, not sure I'd call them "safe"at least in their day ;)). Don't want too much read into my original post which doesn't criticize the presence of hip hop/R&B albums at all on the list. In fact, I laud their presence on the list. Young Zeeba would TOTALLY question their presence on a lit - but I have grown to appreciate the importance and appeal of other genres, yes even pop which seems to be more of a target than hip hop/R&B in my post (I think the only album I mentioned in those genre that seemed like a dis was Lauryn Hill - but certainly not for its quality (great album) but more it's ranking c/w other hip hop albums in the top 100). Most of my critiques focused more on the rankings rather than the presence of certain albums, and it seems the genre that got the most critique was more pop (and more country pop at that).

Actually I really like 3/5 albums Jazzy mentions including 50-Cent and, coincidentally the 1990 album I'm about to play, Mama Said Knock You Out and probably agree with 4/5 albums being on the list to begin with (you'll have to guess the one I wouldn't put there :)).

And to go on record, I tend to be on the side of inclusivity with many non-rock artists of the Rock and Roll HOF (more so hip hop artists than pop artisits) and, as someone who has been there many times, I tend to view the museum as a celebration of music (though the name of the institution seems, with the melding of music styles especially in the past 25 years, outdated and perhaps should (though won't) be changed)
 
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Re-reading my post, perhaps I was too defensive. After all, just because I listen to a lot of rock doesn't mean I'm a musical racist. I listen to a lot of audacious musicians of color - Sammy Davis Jr., Al Green, MC Hammer, John Legend, The Red Hot Chili Peppers....see!....um.... :oops: :confused:
 
Zeeba Neighba said:
^^
Hmmm, I'm wondering if @JazzyRandy 's comments are indirectly geared towards me R&B-splaining why these albums should be on the list instead of my beloved rock albums (it does seem suspicious that he name-checks two of my favorite hip hop groups, Public Enemy and OutKast - and though I would agree they're more revered and respected, not sure I'd call them "safe"at least in their day ;)). Don't want too much read into my original post which doesn't criticize the presence of hip hop/R&B albums at all on the list. In fact, I laud their presence on the list. Young Zeeba would TOTALLY question their presence on a lit - but I have grown to appreciate the importance and appeal of other genres, yes even pop which seems to be more of a target than hip hop/R&B in my post (I think the only album I mentioned in those genre that seemed like a dis was Lauryn Hill - but certainly not for its quality (great album) but more it's ranking c/w other hip hop albums in the top 100). Most of my critiques focused more on the rankings rather than the presence of certain albums, and it seems the genre that got the most critique was more pop (and more country pop at that).

Actually I really like 3/5 albums Jazzy mentions including 50-Cent and, coincidentally the 1990 album I'm about to play, Mama Said Knock You Out and probably agree with 4/5 albums being on the list to begin with (you'll have to guess the one I wouldn't put there :)).

And to go on record, I tend to be on the side of inclusivity with many non-rock artists of the Rock and Roll HOF (more so hip hop artists than pop artisits) and, as someone who has been there many times, I tend to view the museum as a celebration of music (though the name of the institution seems, with the melding of music styles especially in the past 25 years, outdated and perhaps should (though won't) be changed)
Click to expand...
I actually considered not mentioning PE and Outkast for the reason you mention, and the Roots because Rick mentions them - I didn't want either of you to feel I was singling out either of you. I didn't choose those artists because you two chose them. However, the fact that you two who overwheminly prefer R&R to HipHop (not a slight to either of you to say that) like those artists sort of proves my point that those are the types of Hip Hop artists that R&R fans (of a certain age) have heard and may like. It's the nature of the musical divide.

Music has been racially divided for the entire history of America. That's common knowledge. It makes sense that a R&R (or Country) fan would predominantly listen to music by non-Black artists, and that fans of R&B and Hip Hop would predominantly listen to Black artists. I think it's not ideal for American music to be so racially divided these days, but I don't think it necessarily says anything negative about anyone who prefers one type of music over the other. I'm no sociologist so I don't know how much of an individual's decision to listen to certain genre is unintentionally/intentionally based on skin color. I do know that it seems every generation blurs the color lines of music listening a little more. I think RS will help advance that with this new inclusive list. Just as you partially developed your musical tastes by choosing what to listen to from the earlier list, today's college freshmen will do the same and end up with a more inclusive selection. All music fans, because while Black listeners may have mostly ignored the RS lists of the past because the lists ignored them, younger Black listeners will pay attention to the new list because it includes a serious amount of music they listen to. And after name-checking their tried-and-true favorite albums, they might be tempted to check out other albums on the list. There was little chance of that in the past, because there was no reason for a Soul/HipHop fan to peruse the list.

The only thing that irritates me is when people on either side insinuate that one side is inherently more deserving of respect than the other genre. I think it's entirely fair for someone to say they like genre A 99% and rarely hear anything from genre B that appeals to them because they acknowledge they are not really a fan of genre B. But when someone says they love genre B because it is better musically and more deserving of recognition and praise because one genre is more intellectually and musically deserving of recognition and praise, that bothers me.

BTW, I never think you (or anyone at MG) avoid genres because of the race that performs in that space. I think you grew up with parents who listened to the earlier forms of music you listen to now, and you naturally took your queues from them. When everyone in your neighborhood and school are listening to R&R, it's a safe bet that any random person in that group will listen to the same. And vice versa.

I think you try to be relatively inclusive in your personal listening. However, I also realize you will never as fully embrace Soul/R&B/HipHop as much as someone who was raised on those genres. They'll never switch their listening pattern to 80% R&R (or 80% by white artists), and you'll never switch yours to 80% R&B/HipHop (or 80% black artists.) And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Cheers!
 
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